Subaru admits BRZ needs power... Subaru needs something other than BRZ

"BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast." (boxerfanatic) 07/16/2015 at 13:13 • Filed to: None

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Even Subaru of America’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is saying BRZ could use a boost.

Subaru’s only other performance car is WRX and WRX STI, which have inexplicably gone sedan-only, while sedans are dying. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Subaru is making more money than ever, and still !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! year after year.

Yet, it is still a DARK time for Subaru enthusiasts, even if the new 2015 WRX is as good a performer as it has ever been.

There is no variety. WRX and STI are sedan-only, and look almost identical. STI is as expensive as ever, with a 10-year-old drivetrain that should be more than amortized by now, but no other cars use the great driveline, and STI doesn’t use the nice new engine family, and if you want a hatch, rather than a prohibitively tiny trunk lid, you are out of luck. At least until Ford pulls you away with the upcoming 5-door Focus RS.

If you want rally-car ground clearance... you are also out of luck. WRX hardware, or better yet STI driveline, with a WRX FA20DIT engine, in an XV Crosstrek body would solve it. (with long-throw bilsteins, Brembos, etc... included, maybe even torque-vectoring and SI-Drive.)

And frankly, they could go further, and make something more interesting...

I am not a fan of the B5-TPH concept car, but the clam-shell rear hatch has some interesting possibilities for a modular shooting-brake when on, or BRAT-style mini-truck when removed... or other variants... similar to the modularity of the Nissan Pulsar’s rear hatch, on a versatile AWD subaru platform.

If you want to like a new Mustang, but really prefer Subaru’s all-weather-conquering full-time AWD, you are REALLY, REALLY out of luck... there isn’t an affordable AWD sport coupe on the market from ANY brand, they are all premium cars that barely start under $40K. Subaru could do something, and capitalize without ANY direct competition, certainly not from Mitsubishi.

Subaru knows sedans are dying. Impreza sedan, and Legacy are also-ran models in the lineup, yet WRX is inexplicably sedan-only.

Coupes are a hard sell, and if they aren’t block-busters, they tend to fall short, and now they are finally admitting that an excuse-necessitating power level is less advantageous than a higher power level that would negate any need for an excuse about the power level. Plus, a redundant model is hard to sell amongst even a moderate level of coupe competition. There are coupe buyers, but there are not an abundance of them. A killer aspect can make all the difference. A big power-to-weight ratio, or sole availability of high-grade AWD in a sport coupe could be that aspect.

Subaru has done it before.

They could do it again.

Subaru is in a great position, with a lot of revenue for the small size of the company, and a partnership with Toyota that it can leverage for supplier and sub-assembler supply chains...

They could take on both compact and mid-sized innovations in crossover vehicles, as well as offering a single killer-aspect turbocharged AWD 3-door hatchback sport coupe

Both new avenues of product lines could be equipped with current WRX/STI hardware, as well as further advancements.

Appliance sales will continue, but it is time for Subaru to do more than just build AWD appliances, and get back to building cars that people can actually love the way their advertising suggests, and the way people like me used to, but currently no longer can.

It is time to realize some of the latent potential that Subaru, and their modular longitudinal-AWD platforms have more than many other FWD or RWD oriented mainstream brands are tooled up for.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 13:17

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I want this.

Rico > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 13:22

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How can a top executive say it could use more power when countless people who own or have driven one have written articles saying it is perfect the way it is?

TheHondaBro > Rico 07/16/2015 at 13:27

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According to angry Internet armchair critics, it's too down on power.

Justin Hughes > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 13:32

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You know, I have to admit, this wouldn’t be half bad. Car 0 at last year’s Black River Stages was a Subaru XV, and the driver said the car did quite well.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 07/16/2015 at 13:32

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You and me both, my friend.

I have it in my head.

XV Crosstrek baseline

WRX FA20DIT engine, tuned to 296 Legacy DIT JDM specs.

WRX STI DCCD 6-speed manual, with R180 rear diff, and torsen torque-biasing differential, with torque vectoring (even if it had ABS-based active individual braking to influence the mechanical Torsen diff... at least it would be something.)

long-throw Bilstein struts, although my dream would be magneto-rheological dampers, with a combination of a standard coil spring, with a small airbag assist spring to raise the ride height or a low-pressure inflation setting for a soft-spring-rate before the main coil is engaged, with a cross-linked hydraulic bias system that can negate anti-roll torsion bars, and provide anti-roll on-road, but disengage and allow independent travel on light-offroad settings.

SI-Drive with integration into the suspension and drivetrain management, as well as engine-response tuning, and AWD traction management.

Brembo or Subaru Monoblock brakes, with strong forged wheels under widened black wheel arch cladding. Bronze-gold wheels of course, and I would absolutely get it in World Rally Blue Pearl.

I would not argue one bit if they gave it a 3-door shooting brake roofline like the top of the Cross Sport design concept, with longer coupe doors, and a return to frameless side window glass for the coupe, and the double-opening rear hatch.

As I mentioned above, they could do interesting modular things if the whole rear roof section is hinged at the back of the B-pillar, like the B5 concept, and removable... They could do a slick fastback hatch, a shooting brake long-roof hatch, or BRAT-style open air... paired perhaps with a targa roof panel, and you’d have the essential bits of a convertible, even... and something cool like a jeep, but not as raw to deal with, (nor as big and heavy as modern ones have gotten.)

There is all sorts of potential here.

Rico > TheHondaBro 07/16/2015 at 13:38

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So can we lump this Tom Doll (what kind of name is that anyway, sounds made up) in with these people? I’ve never driven the car so I can’t say whether or not it’s fast or slow. I sat it one once and felt like it was just a tight space overall but nothing out of the ordinary for a sports coupe.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Rico 07/16/2015 at 13:40

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Perfect is not a word I am hearing bandied about. Certainly not countless times... and owners have a vested interest in justifying their purchase by spinning up their own enthusiasm.

Good. Enough. Passable. Acceptable. ‘... but it is about handling...’ I hear those, and they are faint praise.

I hear the ones talking about aftermarket power-adders, which voids warranties, and adds significant costs overall, but that it greatly improves the car, and doesn’t spoil the handling.

Imagine if the car came with WRX’s engine. (or even Forester XT’s lower-tuned one, but with much more torque than it does now...)

Stock for stock. 268 horsepower, and 258 lb.ft. of torque. Even if the delta is 50lbs of additional equipment for the turbo, plumbing and maybe a slightly thicker radiator... that is still ~2875lbs of curb weight for a BRZ Limited.

And that isn’t even addressing the possibility of a 92mm x 86mm bore and stroke EZ-family flat-6 engine. De-stroked from the EZ36D to 3.4 liters, and if they were to use it’s dual-AVCS with Toyota’s Valvematic valve lift control, and D-4S compound fuel injection, or Subaru’s direct injection... without forced induction, it could do 100hp/liter, or at least comparable to the entry-level M97-family Porsche 3.4L flat-6... north of 320 horsepower.

How is the current BRZ perfect? How can it not be improvable, compared to that potential HUGE improvement, just by offering the existing FA20DIT, or theoretical EZ34R engine as an option, with double the torque, and potentially more than 300 horsepower, in a sub-3000lb car?

And why can’t that be a Scion/Toyota, while Subaru actually focuses on an AWD coupe application with those engines, which Subaru, an AWD-definitive brand should be offering?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 13:47

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Have you actually driven one?

Tripper > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 13:54

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THIS. My best friend has a BRZ. Right after he bought it he threw on a supercharger and a few other things. It is fantastic to drive, but hard to live with. The exhaust drones terribly, the car is hard as a rock and as you said, it cost him a lot and voids his warranty. His thinking is that if something does happen that he could take the car back to stock and cross his fingers when he takes it to the dealer.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/16/2015 at 14:01

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Will you let me hammer on yours, just for the sake of my own experience?

Until then... I don’t hammer on other people’s cars for my own pleasure, as a matter of respect, and no one that I know has been compelled enough to buy one for themselves, either.

I certainly am not going to go explore the limits on a brand-new, not-broken-in dealership car that someone else will buy and expect to be in new condition. That is just disrespectful for people to do if they aren’t positive that they will be the owner dealing with the after-effects of hammering on a car that is not yet broken in.

The “have you driven it” argument may seem strong on it’s surface, but is actually weak reasoning. I am sure you have discussed things from an empirical reasoning standpoint without extensive first-hand precise-context experience.

I currently have a 2500lb, 145hp, 5-speed, torsen-equipped Miata, and have owned it for more than a decade. I know about light-weight, high-handling, under-powered cars, and I am not against the premise.

I have owned a 300hp-tuned Legacy GT Limited Turbo 5-speed for 7 years.

I have also owned a 230hp 3.3L flat-6 SVX LS-L for 3 years.

I know what high-powered turbocharged cars, as well as smooth-as-silk torquey grand touring cars are capable of, as well, and I know how they all behave on the street, on the highway, and in traffic, and for daily commuting in snow-belt climates with vastly differing weather throughout the year.

Be sure you don’t ascribe my wish for improvement for a tacit claim that the existing car is garbage, because I did not say that.

I did say that there is un-realized potential. While it is unrealized, it is not compelling enough for me to buy anything Subaru is currently selling. If some of the potential I mentioned actually were to be available, they are things that I WOULD go and buy... and then I would own, and have more experience with.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 14:17

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If I owned one, I would let someone drive it. Alas I am not there yet. Having driven one I liked it just fine.

My current DD is an SVT Focus and the driven dynamics felt very much alike, aside from the FWD/RWD difference. I don’t need any more power to have fun driving.

I am not arguing there isn’t untapped potential. Only that there are plenty of people who like to comment on various forums about the BRZ needing more power, but have never actually driven the car themselves. Who would also, if presented with a more powerful BRZ that costs the same as a WRX -because there is simply no way for Subaru to sell a boosted BRZ for less than a WRX- , would also proclaim it too expensive and buy the WRX anyway because AWD; if they even actually buy a car at all. I suspect many don’t even have the money to buy either a BRZ or a WRX anyway, but they still like to complain online about them.

Subaru cannot win. They lose if they leave the BRZ alone. They lose if they make it more powerful because people will still just buy the WRX instead. People think the market is there, but I don’t see it.

If anyone is really, honestly, interested in a factory-boosted BRZ, then they need to find their local Subaru dealer and talk with the manager. State emphatically that they would buy one if Subaru builds it, and prove they have the money to purchase said vehicle.

Otherwise it’s just words on the internet.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/16/2015 at 14:31

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First of all, it is of course just words on the internet... That is all Oppo, Jalopnik, Kinja, and the entire ‘blogosphere’, and the vast majority of the internet is.

Second of all, it is Subaru’s job to sell me a car by making one that I want to buy.

It is not my job to prove to Subaru, or a dealership manager that I can afford it before they’ll build it.

In the ‘free market’, a producer either does business or loses business, it is not the consumer’s job to do the producer’s work.

It is also a logical fallacy that many people fall for, that something that has not been tried, or at least not recently, or to it’s fullest extent, is automatically a failure, because it isn’t being done.

That is an assumption, and you know what those do.

Subaru of America had it’s reasons that a turbocharged Impreza wasn’t offered before the 2000 WRX was introduced with the GD Impreza line. The GC impreza had turbochargers overseas, and were successful rally cars with them. The US only got the 2.5RS non-turbo model as the only performance Impreza option prior to that.

Subaru’s US enthusiast base didn’t explode until the WRX was introduced in the US... 2.5RS was paltry, even though it was a fine car, before that point.

Merely adequate as a fine car doesn’t drive automotive trends. Blockbusters that blow all excuses away do. WRX did.

BRZ is not doing what WRX used to do. WRX isn’t even doing what it initially did, and the enthusiast base for Subaru in the US is basically on austerity rations with only an under-powered, RWD-only coupe with limited appeal, and a Sedan-only WRX with limited appeal.

Both are perfectly acceptable cars, but only just. They are far from blockbusters.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 14:39

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Subaru doesn’t build cars just for you. And they seem to be doing just fine with that.

They won’t change unless they know there is demand, and writing on the internet about it proves nothing. Talking with Subaru about the car you want, and showing you have the wherewithal to actually purchase said vehicle is what proves there is demand for it.

When enough people who share your views about the BRZ, Crosstrek, WRX, STI, etc tell Subaru they want ___ vehicle and have the means to actually buy one, then Subaru would be stupid to not build it for them.

Right now, Subaru is only hearing lots of noise and very little in the way of serious intent. If you want a faster BRZ, then go tell your Subaru dealer and be willing to wait for it. Tell every else who wants one to the do the same. You might actually get one then. And, as a fellow enthusiast, I sincerely hope you do.

Rico > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 15:09

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I’m for more power in any and every car. I don’t believe the car is perfect since there are so many debates regarding it. I’ve never driven one though so I can’t say how fast or slow it is. The fact that they have engines sitting around that they could use and don’t is always something that puzzles me.

Sweet Trav > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 15:12

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God i love it when i am right.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/why-your-car-s…

JDIGGS > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 15:32

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The problem here is simple in my book.

- Outback turned into a fluff mobile, looses all decent power trains and gets doors and roof height to fit gilbert grapes mom in with ease. A fat old persons car from what use to be a off road capable torque monster.

- XV never came out with a decent powertrain. It’s one car one way, just like the outback is now.

- Legacy gt, a slightly larger sti is how much consider the old car, THEN BOOM SLAM WHACK POOP BANG the legacy is completely changed to, now a car with double personalties comes back to being MUNDANE, UGLY, SLOW, NON CAPABLE, basically a fat turd that only customers are friends of subaru owners, not past owners themselves.

- Forester gained performance but sadly it gained size and mass too, and a HUGE COST MSRP, will it’s performance variant die next?

- Cars like Baja a pretty much cult car never had a new model, never had a performance, never expanded on it. Basically waisted opp.

- WRX and Sti went to one body style

- SUBARU HAS HORRILY BORING COLORS. Any sti heads remember cgm, dgm, sgm urban grey etccc all rad colors, now subaru is A CAMRY.

- Basically SUBARU decided to round off any edges, and to become like TOYOTA. This is combined with their SHARE THE SHIT LOVE CAMPAIGN. This is because Subaru got the hype, THEY ARE DOING SO WELL BECAUSE THEIR NEW CUSTOMERS DON’T KNOW SHIT, meanwhile they are really PISSING OFF OLD CUSTOMERS, say those old owners of Outback 2.5l turbo, Legacy 2.5 l turbo that were hoping for a new car to upgrade to, NOW THEY MUST LOOK TO ANOTHER BRAND.

When you are kicking ass and taking names you keep down that path and you educate new owners, SUBARU DECIDED TO INSTEAD DO WHAT THEY THINK CLUELESS PEOPLE WOULD WANT, well I think you can see where and how this has been destined to end up. Loose the sti and brz now SUBARU IS DEAD IN A COUPLE YEARS once all the idiots in this world are told by Subarus previous loyal customers to buy a new brand because the company will eventually become the opposite of what it was.

Owned 8 subarus here friends

CaptDale - is secretly British > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/16/2015 at 18:53

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I have never cared for the Impreza hatchback WRX or regular. I don’t know if it is the weird shape of it or the amount I despise every douchecanoe with a BOV, fart can, and illest sticker that that car seems to attract. It may also be the fact I don’t quite understand the WRX/STI. So the WRX is supposed to be like the rally car, but comes with the non rally car 2.5l T and the STI street car comes with the rally car 2.0l T? Why? Why don’t the do the whole WRX thing there and then take the amazing 3.6R, shove it into the STI, add a 6-speed manual, add 2 turbos, and then make a real performance car? That would make me want a STI. Just like if Hyundai restyled the front and put the 5.0L R-Spec and a manual trans in the Genesis Coupe I would totaly buy one!

pip bip - choose Corrour > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/17/2015 at 04:58

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10/10 would hoon , if i remembered where it as parked.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/17/2015 at 11:47

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I have been directing criticism and options at internet channels that I know Subaru of America monitors, for many, many years... and it has yet to have an effect.

Subaru is already making cars for appliance-buyers. More of them than ever.

But they are languishing on enthusiast offerings.

This isn’t a perfect parallel, but consider the over-arching theme.

Porsche was stagnating and struggling in the mid 1990s. Only two models remained, the 968 evolution of the 924/944/944S2, and the 993 evolution of the air-cooled 911, and they were good cars, but hardly cutting-edge, while the 1990s economy was booming, and other cars were getting markedly better, from the BMW E36 M3, to the sport coupes coming out of Japan, like Supra, RX7, 300ZX, and NSX, as well as the new transaxle-chassis C5 Corvette, after Porsche had retired their own 928.

They not only had to re-design their core models, bringing out the 996 and 986, with a half-shared platform, and water-cooled engines... they also had to branch out.

The Cayenne SUV came out of that desperation and need to diversify. Panamera, and now Macan have followed.

Imagine if Porsche had put EVERYTHING into Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan, and let 996, and following 997, and 991 versions, as well as 986/987/981 languish with minimal improvement, and very little variation. (Porsche is actually unfairly criticized for TOO MANY variants, as if there is such a thing, when the variants add profitability and packaged value to buyers.)

Imagine if Porsche enthusiasts were in the same place that Subaru enthusiasts now are... with barely two models, both with serious appeal-narrowing limitations, while Porsche made money hand-over-fist with mainstream models.

That is exactly what Subaru is doing, and that is exactly where Subaru enthusiasts are. Left with two options with significant limitations, despite the mainstream sales revenue windfalls.

Subaru has their mainstream lineup bolstered, and established. It is time to use that revenue to re-establish their enthusiast sector, and that isn’t done with a me-too also-ran badge-cloned RWD under-powered coupe, and a boy-racer, flat-bill-appealing, practicality-limited sedan.

Everything is going CUV, because CUVs have a distinct practicality and versatility advantage over a shared-platform sedan.

Subaru knows that... BECAUSE SUBARU OUTBACK STARTED IT!

XV Crosstrek is one of their strongest sellers. WRX and STI Hatchback was lamented when it was cancelled, even if it was not the most attractive car, aesthetically. Ford Focus RS is preparing to seize that sector with a 5-door body style and new torque-vectoring an high-output driveline tech, and eclipse the WRX STI.

High performance compact and mid-size CUVs are the next step. GMC Typhoon was before it’s time. Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT or Dodge Durango RT are another attempt, but big, and thirsty.

Lamborghini is coming out with Urus as a production vehicle, but it will be stratospheric, not mainstream.

Land Rover and Range Rover are talking about higher-performance variants of Range Rover Evoque, which includes a ‘coupe’ 3-door, and might possibly also apply to the new Land Rover Discovery Sport.

BMW has been building Motorsport versions of it’s X-series crossovers for some time.

That is where things are going.

Subaru has the cars such as XV Crosstrek, or even Forester XT. They have the engine and drivetrain from the WRX and WRX STI, as well as more potential in the EZ-series flat-6. The platforms are modular, and the parts cross-fit.

All they need to do is assemble them that way, and sell them. It isn’t as if they need tens of millions of dollars in R&D to re-develop new platforms and drivetrains, they are primed to adapt and incrementally improve what they already have.

Yet they don’t. That is the potential left un-realized, and the sales potential left un-served, and I am the potential repeat customer left un-satisfied. I am willing to bet, and some of the other comments here show that I am not the only one.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Rico 07/17/2015 at 11:56

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Tom Doll is the Chief Operating Officer of Subaru of America, Subaru’s american distribution arm.

I think he is likely familiar with the BRZ product that his company sells throughout the american market, the market research behind it, and the sales statistics, and has been behind the wheel a time or two.

I have my differences with SOA’s decisions, but I don’t think I would call him an armchair critic on the internet.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/17/2015 at 12:03

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I never said I disagree with your desire for more fun versions of the Forester and Crosstrek, I actually agree entirely. I more fun Forester would be a likely candidate for a future vehicle for my stable as well.

What I mostly disagree about is the business case for a faster BRZ. The WRX/STI will always have their following. The BRZ is not going to increase sales dramatically with more power because it does not really represent Subaru. At least not this first generation. If they decide to make another generation, they would do well to have a more powerful version. But as it is right now, people who shop for a BRZ and want a fun Subaru will more likely just get a WRX instead, regardless of how much power the BRZ makes because the WRX is a better car at that price-point.

Between emissions standards and the cost of investment, I sadly do not see Subaru doing anything crazy for enthusiasts soon. You’re right, they need to, because the Focus RS is going to pWn the STI. Unlike your Porsche analogy however, Subaru isn’t part of some giant corporate conglomerate, and they can’t count sales of the VW Up! against their 911 GT3/Cayenne Turbo S to meet emissions.

I really do hope they make more interesting enthusiast vehicles though. More competition is always better for us.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/17/2015 at 12:09

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Since the advent of the XV Crosstrek, even more than the Impreza-based Outback Sport that preceded it... and their exclusion from WRC by effect of FIA regulations....

I haven’t understood why WRX and STI continue to be tied to a low-height sedan body-style, in leu of a more CAFE-freindly, dirt-freindly, and generally more versatile higher-ride-height configuration.

Subaru rally cars are not low to the ground, especially not for gravel rally stages, or endurance rallying.

An XV Crosstrek with an FA20DIT engine, and backed by an STI drivetrain, Brembos, long-throw Bilsteins, big wheel bearings, 5x114.3 hubs, and forged alloy wheels would be a MONSTER. And as close to a road-going TRUE RALLY CAR as a showroom-production car can get.

I have frequently called the 08-14 WRX STI 5-door hatchback “Quasimodo, the hunchback of the automotive industry.” I am not a fan, aesthetically, and frankly, I wish the XV took a bit more of a flat-roof design, rather than trying to make a long roof look arched, like Subaru has been, and Honda really tries to do with HRV, and CRV

Frankly, I like the Evoque, Evoque Coupe, and Land Rover’s new Disco Sport much more. I even kind of want to like Mini Paceman’s look... but it is a mechanical and price-point let-down.

But Subaru is uniquely placed to provide a product that no other company other than Audi could do, and Audi is not interested in longitudinal Quattro under 40-grand or so it would seem.

No other company could provide what an XV Crosstrek STI would be, or an affordable compact performance crossover that could do what such a vehicle would do, and that level of capability can forgive a LOT of aesthetics, and a purposeful-looking XV STI might only need a little bit of aesthetic forgiveness.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/17/2015 at 12:32

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Actually, I have said that a slow BRZ is just an excuse-requiring let-down, among a field of RWD cars that it finds hard to compete with. 2015 Mustang is eating it’s, and everyone else’s lunch in that respect.

The business case I laid out, and have been laying out since 2009, when the rumors started that Toyota’s decisions made the FT-86 project necessarily RWD-ONLY, is that Subaru shouldn’t sell the car from their dealerships.

Subaru should be selling an AWD sport coupe. Subaru made the WRONG call on the 2015 WRX, limiting it to a sedan body style, while sedans are withering in the market. Frankly, there should have been three cars with WRX’s engine, and WRX STI’s drivetrain, paired together, a low 3-door Sport Coupe, the traditional sedan offering, and a CAFE-freindly XV Crosstrek Turbo crossover, ALL of which should have been AWD, with a standard 6-speed manual. If they need an automated gearbox, they should get a DSG/PDK style automated dual-clutch. The LAST thing any performance-oriented vehicle should have is a CVT.

The FT-86 RWD coupe model should stay as a Toyota/Scion product, with a “powered by Subaru” badge. And like most other cars, should offer two engine choices... an affordable FA20, and a higher performance FA20DIT or EZ34R. Options don’t hurt cars, nor do they hurt customers, they only help sales, within reason.

There are plenty of people who don’t want a boy-racer sedan, and who do like RWD coupes for handling. WRX doesn’t handle like that, despite it’s high performance level. BRZ/FRS/GT86 and WRX are really two distinct products... so distinct, that one could doubt why Subaru is dealing with RWD, in leu of AWD.

Insurance on a 2-seater, and practicality, and merely having eyes that one doesn’t want to burn, may keep them out of 370Z.

I wish Genesis Coupe had caught on more than it did... but the same reasoning applies to it as applies to the FT86... too many excuses to be made, not enough of a killer/blockbuster aspect to justify the costs, compared to buying a Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger which have more style and tradition, or for some who did then buy an FT86 or Miata for the light-weight aspect.

If a coupe doesn’t have a claim to fame, it doesn’t get famous. Coupes aren’t practical enough to sell themselves if they don’t have a claim to fame... people will buy cars with more doors, and more space, more practicality and more versatility, if flash and performance aren’t enough to compel on a coupe. A sporty coupe is more like a celebrity than a work-a-day-professional. A celebrity that isn’t famous and flashy, isn’t exactly a celebrity, yet aren’t ready to work for a wage when trying to dress up like a celebrity.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/17/2015 at 13:34

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They have to use the CVT to meet CAFE requirements with AWD. No it’s not a great choice, but they have no other option. If they could use a ‘normal’ auto, you’d think they would have. And I think they agreed to the BRZ to help the corporate fuel economy. It’s small and light and they knew that they would sell enough with the auto to help their fleet average.

The BRZ will never compete on heritiage against the Mustang, Camaro, etc. And it fails to compete in the market because people (meaning non-enthusiasts, though there is the case that many so-called enthusiasts really aren’t) are idiots and don’t care about driving dynamics and feel. The new Mustang may very well be a great car, but it is still a bloated, heavy, cruiser compared to the BRZ. Sadly we have seen that the buying public cares little about anything other than power.

It is honestly astonishing that the Miata has stuck around this long. And because it has, I do not see anything taking away those fans of small, light, and nimble cars. If the rumor of Toyota using the ND platform for the next gen FT86/FRS holds true, the Toyota has seen the writing and is just going to build what is basically a Miata variant rather than compete.

I’ve said it once, but it bears repeating; Subaru cannot win. The BRZ doesn’t fit their product line in the US. They had a hyper-hatch, but people complained about it being a hatch, so they build the next one as a sedan, and people complain about it being a sedan. Now the Focus RS comes out, is a hatch, and people love it. /jackiechan meme/ Subaru sold the exact same car already and people threw a fit about it.

What are they supposed to do? Your ideas about hotter Foresters and Crosstreks make sense. And they don’t even need to make a Crosstrek STI; just putting in the flat-6 as a luxury model would be better. That car deserves more grunt than the anemic 4-pot they use now gives it. I would drive the shit out of a flat-6 Forester. And the Forester STI will sell well enough to cover the engineering needed to add the STI drivetrain.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/17/2015 at 14:13

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I didn’t say that they should ditch the CVT entirely, as an appliance is still an appliance with a CVT. They don’t belong in a performance car, though, and those have minimal impact on CAFE, especially if Subaru were to shift most of their turbocharged engines to performance versions of XV and Forester, which are CAFE light truck classified, not passenger-car. I could, and have previously ranted against government over-regulation, as well... but that is a libertarian/federalist (in the 18th-century federalist limited-government sense) argument for another time.

However, I do disagree with almost entire lack of manual gearbox in the lineup. Other than BRZ or WRX, Outback and Legacy may have already lost their manual gearboxes, and Impreza and XV drop them the minute you LOOK at the option list to get what few amenities they offer, that most people want.

XV and Forester will never get a flat-6, for the same reason that Forester has a de-tuned FA20DIT. Forester XT is not a sporty vehicle, the turbo is a substitute for cylinders 5 and 6, and only that. Forester is not allowed to step on Outback’s toes, and neither will XV be allowed to. H-6 and amenities as a segment belongs to Outback, and perhaps a couple of Legacy sedans.

I wholly agree with you, I would love to drive an H6 Forester, if the SJ Forester weren’t as numbing as novacain otherwise. I liked the SH Forester, and was in awe of the few that swapped STI EJ257-6MT-DCCD hardware into them. I preferred my H6 SVX’s smoothness over my Legacy GT’s EJ255 turbo’s lag-then-rush, and 3000rpm highway vibration. But it isn’t going to happen.

Subaru doesn’t bolt the manual gearbox to the EZ-series engine, and hasn’t other than the JDM/Rest-of-world market BL/BP Legacy 3.0R Spec.B, and the only one before that was the XT6 coupe in the 1980s.

As much as I love flat-6 engines, the manual gearbox is far more important in a performance-oriented Subaru. Subaru’s 4EAT was pathetic, 5EAT was under-utilized, and vulnerable to more than 250ft.lbs of torque, and the CVT takes over control of ground-speed control, instead of the engine’s throttle, by design... otherwise it would be no different than an automatic gearbox, in terms of efficiency. A steady-state engine, with CVT ground speed control is FAR less feedback than a gearbox and engine-throttle control.

Subaru cut off it’s nose to spite it’s face. People not liking the hatchback WRX was not because it was a bad car, pragmatically, it was because it was aesthetically wanting, and just UGLY.

So they cut it, and cut it’s practicality, as well, instead of improving... so the people who dealt with the ugly, lost their practical benefit, without anything else, like an XV or Forester to transition over to.

Subaru has been eliminating some of their own potential sales by limitations on options, colors, interior color lack of choice, and body-style lack of choice, as well as engine lack of choice, and now lack of manual gearbox choice on most models. Choices sell cars, because no customer likes “my way or the highway, go pound sand!” mentality from a producer who wants to sell them something.

I won’t buy another Subaru with a trunk, after the tiny trunks on my previous Legacy GT sedan, and my SVX Coupe. They are just too much of a practical limitation, when hatches exist otherwise.

In regards to what people want.... and although I have low-power experience in a different car, it is still low-power experience.

It can be dangerous on the highway, especially on the interstate. There is no margin for evasive driving, and slow response if the engine isn’t already spun-up, and the engine is vulnerable, noisy, and annoying if it is constantly spun-up.

It is fun when driving on the back road, and shifting through the gears, but it gets annoying when just trying to get somewhere, and HAVING to drive it aggressively just to get response from it. Lack of torque curve is fun sometimes, but not fun, annoying, and potentially a disadvantage the rest of the time. Enough to be a reason to look at a competitor, instead of buying that car.

I am not a low-information car buyer, and I know why I prefer not to spend tens of thousands on a car with less power than I think it should have, and I would sacrifice some MPGs that other people find precious and sacrosanct, to have the improved response.

That doesn’t mean sacrificing handling, that means having power that compliments the chassis, and responds to the driver’s inputs properly, and promptly.

Miata has several hundred pounds advantage on BRZ, tradition, reliability reputation, and one big giant blockbuster aspect...

A CONVERTIBLE TOP.

My spouse is not interested in performance cars, but does like to shift a manual gearbox, and likes a toss-able chassis that feels tight, and not loose and doesn’t wallow. However, it is the convertible top that makes it a favorite, and has kept the car around almost 14 years, while the two Subarus have come and gone within that timeframe. The miata will stay, and only be replaced by another Miata, or perhaps a used Boxster. BRZ doesn’t have that appeal, and I can’t make as convincing a case for it without some sort of blockbuster aspect, especially when I myself am unconvinced by the car.

BRZ doesn’t have appeal outside of the enthusiast segment, because it doesn’t have practicality, and it doesn’t have a blockbuster aspect like knock-out styling, or a convertible top, or a famous name. It further limits it’s enthusiast appeal by being merely adequate on power, rather than having true superiority. Average doesn’t inspire. Superior does.

Nobody is overly proud of “good enough” the way they are about “the best it can be.”